Completely new to casting with no other reference material other than what I've read so bear with me please. I have a Lee 158 grain semi wad cutter tumble lube die. I have some ingots I made out of wheel weights. I fluxed them once with the only wax I had close by, a crayon. I used a stainless steel saucepan to melt the lead in over an electric single element buffet range. I used a Lee ladle to pour the lead into the mold. I had the mold and ladle sitting on the edge of the saucepan as it was heating up. First thing I noticed was the “stuff” floating on the top of the lead. When I would push it off to the side more would form. What is this? Some form of oxidation? The “stuff” would tend to stick to the edge of the ladle making a good clean pour difficult at best. I finally, after about seven or eight attempts, got a few bullets that filled the mold, but had some wrinkles in them. Not expecting perfect bullets yet, but need to figure out why its setting up on top. Not hot enough? When I got the die I did as the directions said and put never seize on the threads of the sprue plate bolt. Then I held a match over the mold itself to “smoke it” after cleaning the oils off with Naptha. I am looking forward to making good bullets, but need some help here. Also, are there any reference materials you can recommend to me. Thanks in advance.Charlie
Trouble pouring lead through the mold
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- Last Post 21 March 2014
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd or 4th Ed. (It answers all your questions and has pictures.)
Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading. (Free on the internet, old but still excellent how to book. Used copies on Ebay, Abe's books, Amazon, etc.)
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More reading material here. http://www.lasc.us/
mrbill2
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Invest in a CASTING THERMOMETER. That will help you gauge HOT. Likely alloy is too cold from your two facts: Sprue cools on plate, bullets when poured successful, have wrinkles.
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Thanks for the reply's. I new more reading was in my future, but didn't know what to look for.
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A THERMOMETER IS VERY IMPORTANT; go to Brownells.com. Jim
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I agree with corerf ...."Sprue cools on plate, bullets when poured successful, have wrinkles."
Those are both classic symptoms of cold pot, cold bullet mold.
Your Lee ladle has a history of agreement that it is too small to stay hot enough for all but the fastest casting methods by an expert. The little Lee ladle is fine if you can cast well enough to drop bullets from your mold 3 times a minute . That is a good casting speed for an expert and a speed level that works well when pot and bullet mold are up to working temperatures. Strive for that.
A tightly rolled wand made from newspaper about 1 inch thick should instantly blacken and burst into flame on the end when touched to the melt surface in your pot. That is a simple and old way to tell if your melt in your pot is hot enough to flux and hot enough to cast bullets. Try the rolled newspaper test before fluxing until you can get a casting thermometer. If it doesn't flame, your melt in the pot is not hot enough, about 620 to 700 degrees F. is needed for clip on wheel weight scrap to flame a newspaper wand.
Many casting hobbyists never get a thermometer but just get very good at the newspaper test and pot settings.
Gary, (retired casting analyst)
My casting setup is not elaborate or expensive, but I think well planned. Cost is less than one 20 round box of .458 Win Mag factory ammo. I cast a lot in that caliber.
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Charlie, I'm going to suggest you consider purchasing a better ladle than the LEE. It has two major issues, first of all, the capacity is too low to get a complete fill out with most molds. Second, it pours the alloy off the top of the ladle, Lyman & RCBS ladles pour allot from the bottom of the ladle where its cleaner, and the temps a bit more stable. The lead isn't going into the mold because it's solidifying on the sprue plate. This tells us that your mold isn't hot enough. Here's an awesome source of information that you may have already discovered: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellBookContents.htm
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You're not that bad, I couldn't get a single bullet cast when I tried that ladle.
I would suggest a LEE bottom pour pot, any. They will simplify your life a lot.
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I downloaded the Fryxell book and have been doing some reading. Thanks for the link. Very interesting reading. Some is over my head, but I am getting most of it. In the leading chapter right now.Thanks again for the responses.
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The RCBS ladle holds more alloy than the Lyman .
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So, from what I've gathered so far, wheel weights are essentially an unknown combination of alloys. Yes or no? If so, and a person was interested in shooting rifle as opposed to pistol bullets, how do you determine the types of alloys present in the mix? I would rather err to the side of caution.
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Bit the bullet(as it were) and ordered a Lee precision 20# pro 4 pot, Lyman thermometer, Lyman cast bullet 4th edition handbook and some other miscellaneous dirt bike stuff. Looking forward to working on my fledgling molding skills.
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Alloy testing for hardness can be simple with the pencil set method or with a specific tool like the Lee hardness Test kit. I learned to follow the Lee method of determining the ultimate Tensile strength of the bullet alloy that is a conversion from BHN to PSI. The Load level in Ballistic pressure is expressed in PSI and Lee eplains the optimum alloy relation for plain based bullets in their Modern Reloading, Second Edition. Gas checking bullets will extend the load range of a bullet alloy to an amount you have to determine, but the system works for me. It does take some study to understand and apply the theory; it does work to select an alloy or mix an alloy to the load level you desire.
I have been casting bullets since 1957 and now only use pure lead for Muzzle Loading and Lyman #2 alloy or a clone of same hardness for everything else in rifles from .223 to .458 Win Mag. with both plain based and gas checked bullets.
I do mix a recreational bullet alloy that is BHN 15, the same hardness as Lyman #2, and mix that from soft pistol range scrap and Linotype scrap 1:1 . It routinely tests at BHN 14 - 15 but I buy certified Lyman #2 for hunting from RotoMetals.
You can find the Pencil test method, search for it at CastBoolits forum stickies. It is a broad but helpful method and the hardness numbered art pencil sets are only a few bucks at Walmart or office supply places.
Gary
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I'd suggest that you find some cheap emergency candles or some Gulf canning wax for your fluxing. Both will be purified parafin that burns very hot. When you see the white smoke, light it afire. The stuff on top generally heats up and disappears that way, whatever is left behind is burnt to a black ash you just skim off.
Others can suggest better fluxes yet but, that's what I use. Just be aware of the flames that will come off of a small amount of parafin, pretty flammable stuff.
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Made my 1st batch of bullets last night. .38/.357 swc. Wound up with 107 before I had to go cook chicken for our schools fundraiser. I found that I was in fact pouring from a cold ladle into a cold mold, so thank you everyone for the pointers. Next question. I threw back several to the pot because of deformities or incomplete fill out. I have some that are very nice looking. I have some that are dull/not shiny looking. I also have some that are shiny around the top and duller in the lube grooves. The ones that are dull, are they still ok to shoot, or should I throw them back? I was having a good time yesterday. Can't wait to get back at it.
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The ones that are dull and not shiny, That is called a velvet finish and that is actually the bullets that you have cast the largest with the best fill out of the mold. That is a goal to aim at.
The shiny bullets, you will find that they are the ones that have slightly rounded edges where they should have been sharp and square and they have not as good of a fill out as the velvety ones do.
The mold/alloy were closest to ideal working temperature when you cast the velvety bullets. The mold/alloy were a little cool and below ideal working temperatures when you cast the shiny bullets. Go for the very slightly frosty, velvety finish to get the largest diameter, best fill out bullets. The shiny ones are smaller and usually not as accurate when fired. Don't go for pretty/shiny!!! Go for velvety/best fill out.
Look at your bullets with a magnifying glass and you will see the difference of sharp square where they should be that way versus shiny rounded where you got poorer fill out of your castings. You are doing fine! Now you have a better idea what to look for in your bullets when you want maximum fill out and the sharpest detail in your castings.
Gary
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Ok, good to know. Frosty is better. I'll look at the new bullets with a magnifying glass. I'll post what I find.
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My Lee 20-4 bottom pour pot, Lyman thermometer and Lyman cast bullet handbook showed up this morning. My wife isn't likely to get much out of me this weekend. Gary, I noticed yours has a wooden knob, and mine came with a metal knob. Does the metal handle get hot.
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Forgot to post my findings on the look of the frosty compared to the shiny bullets. It appears that the frosty ones lube ridges were more defined. Haven't put a micrometer to them yet. Might get a chance to do some more work on this this weekend.
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If yours has a metal knob, you should expect it to get 3rd degree burn hot. Wearing leather gloves is what I do anyway, not just because of a knob. I can't imagine the reasoning for switching to a metal knob for operating the flow valve. Mine has a threaded screw sticking out of the operating rod with a wooden operating knob you can see as the only wooden part on the pot in my picture up the page. Wood is a good insulator to protect from heat.
Please be sure to study your instructions well. The heat setting dial is approximate but use your thermometer and listen to the pot clicking on and off. The pot click cycles much faster and clicks more often when temp has come up to setting. When you hear a click and slight 60 cycle audible hum, the heating element is ON. Click and then silence and it is OFF. It stays on for a long time till the set temp is reached. Then it cycles automatically as needed to maintain set temp.
Make sure you understand exactly how the flow valve adjustment screw works and how to set it.. also, set the mold guide to locate your casting mold centered under spout and set for a 1/2 inch or slightly less flow length of metal from the spout to the sprue gate hole.
I recommend you set up the pot with the spout at eye level while you sit working. Standing to work and bending over to watch the spout pour correctly gets very fatiguing and standing has a poor view of where you need to see what you are doing. Be safe: leather gloves, apron, safety glasses and something on the base under the spout like a pie tin or ingot mold to catch over pour or drip if you need to adjust flow rate or rotate the valve stem to clean with molten metal in the pot. Don't let metal run all over the aluminum base- have something there to catch over-pour. I generally adjust the flow valve for1/2 turn less than maximum flow but a positive shut off when the knob is allowed to drop down. Incorrectly adjusting the valve adjustment screw is a serious error and you can really get hurt/burned if you don't understand the parts and how to adjust them correctly.
Gary
If you have any complex questions, PM me with your phone number and question as carefully as you can state it, if necessary.
Gary
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I sat this evening reading over the directions that came with the pot. I do plan on placing it at about eye level while sitting in my shop (the “He Man Women Haters Club"). I do have a wooden bench top where I'll be working. I'm looking forward to beginning this tomorrow. I'll let you know how it turns out.
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I have helped a number of people get started with the same Lee 4-20 pot. It is always a little scary starting with such high temperatures, The most common error is pot temp and mold warm-up.
There is an ideal temp for the metal in your pot for any bullet alloy. 100 degrees above the fluidus point of the alloy. The ideal temp for molds is 100 degrees below the fluidus point of the alloy.
You determine the fluidus point of your alloy by heating alloy very hot past melting , turn the heat OFF, then use your thermometer to determine the temp that the alloy exhibits the very first signs of any solidification at all. That is the fluidus point where the alloy transitions between liquid and solid. Raising your pot temp 100 degrees F. above that fluidus point is the ideal temperature for casting of any bullet alloy.
Mold temperature is controlled by casting cadence. . 1 or 2 cavity molds need to drop bullets 3 times a minute for maintenance of a good working mold temperature.
Gary
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I did a very little bit of casting this afternoon. I set the pot to hi, and allowed the ingots to begin melting. The thermometer reached 700 before it started coming back down and I turned the temp down to about 4 on the dial. After watching it a few minutes the temp began to creep over 700. I bumped the dial down to 3. Still creeping above 700. Set it down to 2 and the temp normalized around the 650 mark. I started casting and the valve leaked a little after some pours and a good amount after others. I figured a little love tap on the top of the valve arm might correct that issue. Sure enough, no more leakage. Made some good looking bullets. I'll get a closer tomorrow. See how nice they look.
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The leak type you describe sounds like impurities settling in the valve seat. Tapping the valve rod can help but may also dent the valve seat causing more leakage. Keep a small screwdriver very close and handy when casting and use it to rotate the valve rod vigorously a few times . Then lift the valve by the handle and let a small squirt of metal out the spout into your catch pan or ingot mold. The impurities that were in the valve seat will loosen from the turning and get squirted out when you open the valve.
I generally find myself doing what I have described 3-4 or more times a potful when casting. This is NORMAL. Tapping on the valve rod that repeatedly will damage it and damage the sealing surfaces. Don't do that. I suggest you do the turning and flow the gunk out thing I described instead of your tapping. The pot instructions describe this too but don't give the user a realistic idea of how frequently the valve cleaning is necessary; for me it is usually 3-4 or more times a potful.
You can see my little screwdriver in my casting setup picture right next to the pot base. I keep it very close by for just what I have described. Barely visible behind the screwdriver is a paper clip wire I use with a small pliers (pliers not in pic) to clean bottom pour spout of gunk when flow gets obstructed. You can push the wire up and down the spout hole and work it around to clear gunk. You can also push up and open the valve so be careful of splatter when doing that. I will push it up intentionally to clear loosened gunk at times. use pliers, gloves and a catch container doing this routine maintenance
The impurities that settle in the valve seat are either from impurities in your metal or from scraping the pot bottom/ sides and not skimming enough after stirring/fluxing. Using clean metal and good fluxing/scraping, stirring and skimming methods will lessen crud in your valve. some crud is NORMAL and takes care to keep it to a minimum and out of your valve.
Have fun, be careful and safe.
Gary
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Did you find the fluidus point temperature of your alloy?
Dropping all your sprues into a pan and saving them till you get to the bottom of the pot to start a new potful with ingots and sprues is a good idea. Dropping sprues into a hot running pot while casting instantly drops pot temp . You can see that with your thermometer and then notice how long it takes the pot to come back to the working temperature you have set on the pot. Put sprues in when you start a new batch.
How about some close-up pictures of your bullets, even the bad ones. I can diagnose casting flaws very well and may be able to help you more.
Gary, retired casting analyst
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As it turns out, my wife had other plans for me on Sunday after church. I “got to” build shelving in her closet. No more casting for me for a while. Going to St. Louis on Thursday for the weekend and finishing up the honey do's before that will leave no time for casting. I need to read up on how to do the pictures. Not done any pictures yet. I've got some on my phone and even have one in my pocket (is that weird?) but not sure how to post it.
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I find it easiest storing my photo in Photobucket and dropping IMG codes in my posts.
Gary
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Gary, I saw a reference to your screen name in Missouri this evening. Near Rolla I saw a sign that said something about “Onondaga. Any relation? Just curious.
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I have good friends in Missouri that I share another hobby with..,,I trade rocks with them for my hobby of Flintknapping. I make arrowheads and replicas of primitive stone tools out of a flint that is native to where I live. I live on the Onondaga Escarpment in Western New York. My area is named after an Onondaga flint formation that is a low ridge from Detroit to Albany , NY, then South to PA. It runs right through my neighborhood in WNY. The Onondaga people are a Clan of the Seneca Nation of Native Americans, the name of the rock came from them.
Onondaga Flint is my favorite rock to work with. Here is some of my work in Onondaga Flint:
Raw Onondaga flint from my backyard then some points I made from it:
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Very nice. That black flint resembles obsidian which I saw a lot of growing up in Oregon.
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Gary
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Ok, here goes with the picture thing.
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Ok. So here's some I cast the other day. I just picked 3 that we're shinier and smoother and 3 that we're not. What might be the reason for the difference? 
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Your picture is clearly demonstrating what I have made an effort to explain and define for you:
The top 3 bullets are too shiny, the castings were done with too cool of a mold, too cool of flowing alloy temperature into the mold or both. These 3 cool pour, shiny bullets have less accuate fill out than the lower 3 frosted bullets. These 3 cool pour shiny bullets are likely up to .001” smaller in diameter than the lower 3 frosted bullets. If you weigh the total of the top 3 shiny bullets, they will also be lighter in weight than the lower 3 frosted bullets.
The 3 lower frosted bullets are what I try to get all the time for best fill out detail and largest as cast bullet diameter when that is what I want and need. I actually like mine a little more frostier than your better 3 lower bullets. I run likely 25 or so degrees hotter pot and I cast faster too, keeping the mold hotter. That is why my best bullets are frostier than yours.
Gary
You can still see the frost on the noses of these bullets of mine where they have not been sized and Aluminum gas checked, they are NOT shiny and have maximum detail fill out:
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Thanks Gary. Just confirming what I thought I had understood from you. I did check them all for size and they are all .358 or very close. Lengthwise they are all the same as well. Haven't gotten a chance to weigh them. Should be able to check that this afternoon.
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It is good you can identify the differences. Controlling the differences is a valuable casting skill.
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Ok, got a chance to weigh them yesterday. They all weighed within a grain and a half of each other. That was good. Began explaining the difference in a frosty and shiny bullet to Bill while I was standing them up on a magazine on his kitchen counter. I looked down and noticed that some had a much more defined top ridge??? than the one next to it. I looked and the sharper edges were on the frosty ones. Bill and I were both impressed with our find. We verified that the shiny ones were a little “softer looking” on top than the frosty ones. Very cool observation if you ask me.
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Frost, technically called surface porosity, on castings and detail under magnification are only a couple of things involved in the analysis of castings and the diagnosing of problems. I worked as a casting analyst, consultant and technical instructor for a gold refinery that alloys precious metals used in Dentistry. Plus I started casting gold in 1956 and bullets in 1957, It is a second nature to me to diagnose and fix casting problems. I actually got paid for doing that for a lot of years.....I had a blast! But, enjoying retirement now.
Gary
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Quick question. Im not near my Lyman book. For that 158 grain .357 swc bullet, what is the load data?Thanks
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Got a chance to weigh the bullets on Tuesday. Here's my results: Shiny- 157.8, 158.3 and 159 grains. Frosty- 158.7, 158.8 and 159.4 grains. I also had one I've been carrying around in my pocket for a couple weeks. it weighed in at 160, but it was a different pour on a different day. All wheel weights though.
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