I just bought this rifle and am casting a lee 200 gr. bullet for it. some guys I know who cast say cast to .312 or .311. but my bore is .308 so why cast over .308? also they say keep FPS to 1,900 or less. I want to load to 2,400. whats up with this info? is it BS or am I dumb? call me anything if I'm wrong it won't bother me. I just need the truth, this is my first attempt to cast for rifles. thank you for any input.
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Bob: I load for two .30 cal rifles; an '03A3 30'06 and a Savage Mod 12BVSS .308W. I size .311 for the '06 and until recently I sized .310 for the .308. Just recently I had a friend work over an old .309 sizing die to give me a .3105 bullet, and it seems to show great promise in the Savage.
Regarding desired MV, if you look at the CBA match results, you'll find that most of the winners (in .30 cal.) are running around 1600 -1800 fps. Some shooters are fairly successful with 2000+ fps loads, but they do not give match winning accuracy, and they do give more problems with bore leading.
You can get a lot of good info from the match results published by the CBA. They include rifle, bullet sizing info, powder type and charge wt. etc.
Hope this helps,
Wes
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I don't need match accuracy just need to hit a deer at 200 yards. Is that possible with a lead bullet? and .308 is too small for a .308 bore? I just don't understand why you all go over bore size, it doesn't make sense, it would seem to raise pressure with a .311 and .310 bullet, and maybe with a .308 it would cause less leading . please explain?????
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bob54WWW:
I'll try to clear some of this up for you. And no, your questions are not dumb. It's just a matter of some details.
First, .308” would be the rifling groove diameter and the bore in most 30's would be at .300” +-. Then there is the throat or ball seat. Which is that part of the bore that is just ahead of the chamber that the bullet occupies when a loaded round is chambered. And the “throat” can be larger than the groove diameter.
In order to get accuracy and no leading from cast bullets, the throat is what you want to measure to find out what size the bullet should be. And that cast bullet needs to seal that throat. So, you may find that that throat is larger than the .308 groove. Hence, the need for a larger than .308 bullet. There are a couple of different ways of doing this.
I have two .308's, one an old military Mauser and the other, a newer Rem. Both shoot best with a bullet that is sized .310". And each rifle is unique. So, although the groove diameter is .308", the rifle may shoot best with a bullet that is larger still. You just have to find out and experiment a little.
My mold cast a .311” and I then size to .310”
As to velocity, the hardness of the cast lead bullet must be such that the bullet can stand the pressure of the load. So the faster you push a cast bullet the harder it must be. I only load for target shooting so the pressure and velocity of my rounds are fairly low. But there are some shooters who have pushed the cast bullet pretty hard with hard alloy and gas checks.
If the cast bullet doesn't fit and seal the throat, it will lead the bore and turn the rifle into a shotgun.
Hope this helps RD
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A lot of people cast a .312” bullet for the '06 because that is the diameter of the throat of their chamber. Sizing to throat diameter is the consensus for best accuracy. If the throat of your rifle is less then you could size to this diameter. For myself I size all of my 30 cal. bullets to .310” and just go with it. As to the 2400 f.p.s. that's pretty much the top end and too much work for me. I've been able to get 2100 or so with heat treated wheel weights and a good lube along with what I call acceptable accuracy and no leading to speak of. I stick with 1600 to 1800 because it's pretty easy to do.
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Hi Bob,
Over the coarse of the last 2-3 weeks I have tried to hit 2400fps with my 308 Win with a 150gr Lyman 311466 sized .311 from heat treated WW and LBT blue. If success is measured by a nice shinny silver colored coating inside the muzzle and groups akin to a load of #1 buck then things went well. Not what I was hopping for, but none the less it was a learning experience that has me in the same boat with the above reply. 2000fps does require more effort, 2400fps- well, it's going to take a bunch of effort. Getting successful accurate loads in the 1600-1800 range is obtainable without a lot of range time and component expenditure. Some rifle/ctg/bullet combos can find a happy place at higher vels, depends on how much time effort one wants to put into it.
On a more personal note, being you are just starting out casting, keep things simple, allow success to come easy early on, learn the basics, find enjoyment in learning about casting, loading and shooting CBs. The rules and reality of CBs are different than jacketed bullets and frustration can eagerly accept our invitation when we let it. There are a lot of experienced CB shooters on the forum, I learned quickly to heed their advice, even after casting off and on for 30 plus years. The slow may seem mundane, but with 1-2” at 100yds running at 1600-1800fps one will have the confidence in his rifle and load to make his shots count and have heaps of fun getting there.
All the best, Michael.
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I have shot many deer with a 30-06, 200 gr.cast bullet at 1700 fps. They die just as fast and maybe faster than with a jacketed bullet at 2800 fps. In fact I have shot deer with 250 Sav. 257 Rob. 300 Sav. 30-30, 358 Win. 35 Whelen, 38-55, and 45-70 all with cast bullets and none over 1700 fps. Try it , you will like it.
Glenn
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You want the truth, so here is the truth as I know it to be.
It not that difficult to hit a deer and kill it at 200 yards with a cast bullet.
A velocity of 2,4000 fps with a 200 grain cast bullet out of a 308 is possible, but it will be difficult to do with decent accuracy. I didn't say impossible, I said difficult.
There are 308 rifles and there are 308 rifles. Some are rifled 1-10 and others are rifled 1-12. I have four 308 rifles, three of them (2 Winchesters and I Remington) are 1-12 and the Savage is 1-10.
This twist does make a difference when you are trying for top end cast bullet velocities.
As others said, a deer can be cleanly taken with a 200 grain cast bullets at velocities much less than 2,400 fps.
Best accuracy will be had when the diameter of the cast bullet is matched to the diameter of the barrel throat. Usually this will be .310 or .311 in commercial 30 caliber rifles. The diameter of the barrel grooves is really not that important.
Das it, the truth as I know it. Best of luck
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Bob,
The guys who have responded have all provided really down to earth and useful info.
I have a Rem. XP-100 bolt action pistol (no longer factory configuration). It has been chambered in 30 BR, 30 Kern, 30 PPC and now is 30 Silhouette (a 223 case). With a 15” barrel and 1"10 twist it always seemed that the sweet spot was 1950-2100 fps range with a really hard bullet (50-50 mono & lino) and always sized at 0.311". Yes these are wildcats but one more example of size, twist and hardness to think about. Never had an interest in getting above the 2100.
You will enjoy figuring this out so don't get impatient!
Tom
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the lead we find useful for casting comes in a range of hardness, from pure lead which is close to being a liquid ( but useful in muzzle loaders, as it is easier to push down the barrel ) ... to so hard it gives a brittle bullet .
we often describe this hardness range as being on a ” Brinell ” measurement scale of 0 to about 30 for very hard alloys.
for hunting, with 30 calibers, upset of the bullet at the deer is desired, and it is found that a hardness of about B18 and up keeps the bullet from mushrooming ...
...and getting more than about 1800 fps with that soft alloy in a bare bullet can be problematic .
as other posters have mentioned, there have been a lot of deer taken with 1600 fps cast bullets.
ken
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Im reletivly new to casting for rifles too. I have been doing some testing, main thing that will seperate the hunter to target shooter is that I would prefer a softer bullet for a kill shot, and to reach speeds over 1700 you will want to start hardening your mix, some of the harder mixes I have found become brittle and may make a better varmit bullet than a hunting bullet.If you have a great barrel it might not lead up and you might not need a tighter fitting bullet. try some alliant 2400/at16 grains is a good start, I have also had some good accuracy with unique, I haven't worked a lot with the rifle powders yet, but whenever it gets to 2k fps my groups open up. good hunting
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well I just bought some .312 Lee bullet molds, a 200 gr. and 180 gr. from
http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&StoreCode=PRE&CategoryCode=RIFLEMOLDS
and a couple sizers .311 and .309 at same place.I found this place is cheaper than Midway. so I'm going to try .311 first and I guess 14 grs. of Unique. I'll post results in afew days. too cold today . probably should have started in summer instead of winter. and thank you all for your knowledge and patience. later
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lee molds can give quite good results ... but treat them gently ... firstly, ra and follow their directions..
clean the cavities with brake cleaner and a toothbrush you keep for that purpose. lubricate the points they designate. i use moly grease, a teeny amount.
cast on the hot side ...;you can tell when you get too hot because the sprue puddle takes forever to harden .... in fact i regulate the casting rythm by how long it takes the sprue to harden ... you can visually see that happen.
with any mold, but especially lee products, try not to beat the crap out of the sprue plate when cutting off the sprue. try cutting the sprue with a gloved hand ...if too difficult, use a soft tapper stick ( i use a 1 ” round delrin bar ) ..
regarding throat diameter .... at ignition, the brass case neck expands before the bullet moves much ...so the bullet is kinda just left floating in mid air .... if too small, not only does the hot gas flow past and erode the surface lead ( and solder the barrel with the lead dust ) but the bullet is not well aligned with the bore ... and so the 10 ton kick in the rear can randomly bend, mash, and generally distort the soft lead slug before it can reach the confines of the grooved barrel . so the idea is that a throat sized bullet get's a straighter start.
i usually just tinker, so only load 20 or 30 of any one bullet at a time. i find it faster to just get my fingers messy and rub the lube on by hand. if i use gas checks, i first lube then run the bullet and check thru the lee sizer ... it does a good job of getting the check on square, which is a big deal.
just some trivia
ken
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Well I tried the 200 gr. lee bullet sized to.311 it leaded the ruger barrel totally after 5 shots. it was a pain to get the lead out. so I sized to .310 and same result, so to .309 and it finally stopped leading so fast. I can't rapid fire these bullets, have to slow down and let barrel cool. I was going to try loading the 180 gr. lee bullets to .312 for a sks and blaze away but the way they lead I'll stick with cheap Yugo fmj ammo. but I did try the .312b 200gr. in my Eddystone enfield and they shot great with 12 grs. Unique. so thanks all. I'll keep shooting jacketed bullets in the American and have more fun with the enfield. thanks again.
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I shoot both the 30-06 and the 7.62x39 all the time and have never had any leading, so I think you might be doing something wrong. Either your velocity is to high or your lead is to hard. Yes to hard. I never use more than wheel weight lead under about 15 brn. In my 30-06, I have shot pure lead and tin , 20 to 1 at 1500 fps and never any leading. The brn is about 10, which is very soft. I shoot the 7.62x39 with the Lee 160 at about 2000 fps with only ww & tin(15 brn) and never any leading. What mix of lead are you using?
Glenn
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Are you using gas checks? Do you use a lube-sizer or a loading press push through die? I'm curious about your bullet lube as well. Enfields like cast bullets when they have a good bore. The real fun of cast bullet shooting is in the learning and trying. That and shooting three times as much for the same money!
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I polish the bore as per Gary's method this site. I use a .311 sizer and Lars lube and lube the nose after I load the round with Lees alox. This is in a Ruger Hawkeye 3006. 27 Grains of 4759 approx. 2000 fps and I hit man sized silly wet at 500 yards. 18 grains of 4759 will take a deer down vel 1550 fps. Bullet, Lyman old mold 45 years old number 31141. The polish method allowed me to really increase the powder charge and get consistent accuracy. One to one and ahalf inch groups at 100yards.
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I was going to polish the Ruer American barrel cause I know its not been fired enough to smooth the barrel out. but if I shoot 500 rds of my cheap s. Korean FMJ it will be broke in. I use WWs dropped in water. my enfield loves the .312 bullets, I can't put a GS on cause Lee doesn't sell a .312 sizer . they shoot good enough for me. as for the sks I get tired of racking the bolt and cleaning barrel. its not my favorite rifle ,it doesn't shoot FMJ in a straight line. at 100 yards it has bullets like a shotgun pattern, I don't know what it is that causes that, it is a Romanian and I should slug the bore ,the bore is pitted and darker than my 1917. I think this sks saw a lot of use. thanks for all I'll be shooting more with the 1917. I wish I could post pic of it,I can't shrink pixels down lower than .4.8 . thanks !!! :fire
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Bob
The harder the bullet, the faster you can drive it. That's all well and good on a paper target. I've killed 9 deer with 218 gr round balls from a muzzleloader at a little over the speed of a throwen rock. Your now shooting cast bullets, not jacketed ones. Slow down, You don't need all tht velocity. That high velocity retoric is what the vendors sell magnum rifles and in-line muzzleloaders with. You don't need it because it's uneccessary. That high velocity stuff is only a mind set, you're shooting cast bullets now so throw it out with your dross.
Personally, in rifles 8mm and smaller, I start with heat treated WW bullets. This way, I'm starting at the harder end, just to reduce that veriable. I can always go softer at a later date but why start soft and wonder when a load leads, is it becasue of the load combination or is the bullet is too soft. When starting with a hard bullet, if it leads, you know it's the load combination and not the bullet.
The bullet must be the correct size to fit the bore, other wise it will always produce bad accuracy. Once you have a bullet that fits the bore, only tial and error will eventually produce the load with the best accuracy. Once the rifle decides what load it prefers, Bingo, your done, and it doesn't matter what the velocity is. Granted, you will end up someplace between 1300 and 1900 FPS. Once that magic load is found, you might want to try a softer bullet, say quenched WW, and softer yet for air cooled WW.
As the bullet gets softer, you might have to slow the velocity down even more. Obviously this is done by reduceing the podwer charge.
I don't chonograph loads untill I'm all finished load testing and the rifle has found it's best load. Then only to satisfy those who ask, do I want to know the velocity. I really don't care, and have only had a crony for 2 years. My wife got it for me for Christmas otherwise, I still wouldn't have one.
John R
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I have 4 rifles in 30-06 presently . and three in 308 Win plus 3 in 303 Brand and 3 in the short and long 7.62 russian caliber. Not to forget the guns in the old 30-30. I used to shoot them from the bench but now I have been burned out from besnch rest. I enjoy shooting from offhand at steel gongs at 60 yards.The paradise of fun shooting. For short range thick brush boar hunting I use large calibers 45-70 , 444marlin & 44Magnum and for longer shots ( 100 to 150 yards across a meadow) at Italian roe deer I use a 375H&H . Bullet speed is around 1300-1500 fps any soft bullet alloy willdo ,without fussing with linotype or heat treating. Gas checks when available are used mostlyfor inducing peace of mind in the shooter). As Onondaga uses to say fitting the bullet to the throat is the most important factot.Any decent lube will do. The use of big bore and slower speed ,in my opinion , brings more easily good Killing power and easy bullet production reloading and no leading . I am afraid that (remember I am a hunter and fisherman myself) our distance and weight estimations are a bit optimistic, in my most humble opinion 200 yards are a long distance reserved to 30 caliber metal jacketed at full speed. I think that cast bullet hunting is a different sport it is a matter of stalking the game,more than the long range sniping. we do with modern ammo. Cast bullets are old & obsolete but for real gentlemen mustering real sportmansip. Humanely and rapidly killing the game.
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The use of big bore and slower speed ,in my opinion , brings more easily good Killing power and easy bullet production reloading and no leading .
I am afraid that (remember I am a hunter and fisherman myself) our distance and weight estimations are a bit optimistic, in my most humble opinion 200 yards are a long distance reserved to 30 caliber metal jacketed at full speed.
I think that cast bullet hunting is a different sport it is a matter of stalking the game,more than the long range sniping. we do with modern ammo.
Cast bullets are old & obsolete but for real gentlemen mustering real sportmansip.
I agree 100%. I mentioned on another post that I've taken 9 deer with a traditional muzzleloader. The longest deer killing shot I've ever taken was 100 yds. across a small valley. All the others were 50 yds and closer. These were taken with a 218 gr .54 cal round ball. I believe the same would apply to all iron sight cast bullet hunting. 200 yds is a long shot.
If I had to return to hunting with breech loaders and cast bullets, I would probably use one of my 45-70's or the .348. Not because the 30 calibers won't kill deer becasue they most certainly will, but because I have a love affair with big bullets. John R
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