Do I need a hardness tester?

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  • Last Post 29 April 2014
Longone posted this 10 November 2013

I have as bunch of unknown lead, it's from backstops, ingots from? here and there, wheel weights etc. I also think that some linotype I bought years ago is softer than the 22BHN that is advertised. I was trying to make Lyman #2 and It seemed like I was not gaining hardness after adding linotype. The bullet weight was OK but the dia. was not, so I thought that by getting a hardness tester I would take some of the guess work out of what and how much material I was putting in the mix and I might actually be able to repeat it for the next casting session. So if you were looking at a tester that was easy to use and accurate which would it be?

Seeing as the cost of tin and lino is where it is today I figure the cost would be offset quickly by not wasting it and only using what is needed.

Longone

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pat i posted this 10 November 2013

Since you asked you've already answered your own question, you need one. Personally I like the LBT and Saeco but other people have their personal favorites. Lee seems to get a good rating and is relatively cheap but I've never used one. Hardness testers are one of those things that you probably don't really NEED but once you've get one you'll wonder how you ever got along without it, or at least you can justify spending the money by wondering how you got along without one. I use mine all the time even if I don't really need to if that means anything.

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99 Strajght posted this 10 November 2013

I use one all the time. It has solved many of the problems of, what is this. I have tried several and the Lee seems to be the most repeatable. It does take some practice, but it works.

Glenn

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 10 November 2013

I really like my Cabin Tree hardness tester.  The dial indicator reading is very simple and the process repeatable and quick to use on a lot of samples if necessary.  I also see that some have modified the unit to a digital reading indicator for their convenience. 

It takes no special stand, just normal shop lighting, and is robust in construction.  The sample size is very generous so you can test bullets, as long as you can prepare a flat nose on them of sufficient size, and ingots from the common ingot molds used by casters.  Not the big molds though.  For convenient and consistant samples, I use a Lee 50 cal flat nosed mold with the wide meplat and just wipe the base and nose on a flat file to be sure a flat surface is available for testing. 

I have found that there is a small error in the readings of the softer alloy, but that is easily allowed for by the use of a certified sample of pure lead for a reference.  I usually only need the mid and upper end of the scale, so it is not a problem for me.

Before I tried the Cabin Tree, my favorite was the LBT and I would have been happy with either one.  Duane

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Longone posted this 10 November 2013

I read the following article and wonder if this test holds water. Seems to me that if you have a large testing group there is more opportunity for variables.

I looked at the LBT and am curious if it ever needs to be re-calibrated and who besides LBT would have a clue if and when it might need this. Some of the other testers use arbitrary numbers that are related to a scale and there is a margin for error depending on how accurately you interpret the scale.

Another question is when to do the testing (age wise). Do you mix components and let set a week or so then test or?

http://www.lasc.us/Shay-BHN-Tester-Experiment.htm#Lee

Longone

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 10 November 2013

Yes, there is a chart that gives a range of indents on the sample and the hardness reading.  But I already mentioned some error. Yes, I was able to compare the readings of KNOWN PURE SAMPLES with the chart and the only error was readings at the soft end of the scale. 

I am not as concerned about the “numbers” but wether the samples are close to the same reading.  This was important to me because many years ago I moved home to KS from TX and friends helped me pack.  Unfortunately, I had a lot of ingots on a shelf, sorted by hardness.  When they were packed, they were packed row by row, not section by section.  The resulting task of sorting by hardness again was formidable.  The hardness tester made the task managable.

As you know, lead or lead tin mixes will age soften over time.  So the testing can be done same day as cast.  And the lead-tin-antimony alloys age harden, wether air cooled or quenched.  Quenching goes a lot quicker and can be checked next day and be close to final hardness, subject to very slooow age softening.  Air cooled alloys may take up to 3 weeks depending upon the amount of antimony in the alloy. 

It is up to the you how and when you test and what you expect for accuracy.  Duane

 

 

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Longone posted this 10 November 2013

I'm looking for consistency and repeatability. I've been a Hi-power shooter for many years and I'm now looking for something that doesn't require dragging gear all day. Shooting small groups or score shooting has much appeal, lot's to learn before I get started but still need to get off on the right foot.

Quality tools usually pay for themselves and in this case it should help produce consistent results.

Longone

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onondaga posted this 10 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6699>Longone

The LASC article is well done and shows the comparison of different testers very fairly.

I use the Lee Hardness tester routinely. The microscope with the Lee gets the most complaints but it is usable under bright light with good technique. I simply use an optical eyeglass loop or a stereo magnifier visor and a dial caliper to measure the indentations from the Lee kit. This is fast and doesn't strain my brain or eyes.

Consistency in timing the 30 second test with the Lee is important but simple if you just look at your watch.  Consistency of operating your press lever with the Lee is also important for repeatable results. Even smooth press lever movement and 30 seconds is not hard to repeat.

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/closecaliper_zpsb33695b8.jpg.html>

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Chargar posted this 11 November 2013

Back in the day, my gunsmith/mentor thumped two ingot together. If they rang it was rifle alloy and if they went thud, it was pistol alloy.

I have used a SAECO tester for about 25 years now and it has done all I need done by such a tester. Any of them are not scientific instruments that give absolute hardness numbers. You have to pay real money to get one of those gizmos.

A hardness tester is nice to have, but caster got by for generations by thumping one ingot against another.

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Longone posted this 11 November 2013

Charger,

I fully agree, but at this point some of the berm lead has been recycled several many times, and then some. With the price of materials today I was just thinking of not wasting tin or Linotype if I didn't have to.

But then again, there are many out there that have a great ear for these kind of things.

Longone

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Longone posted this 22 November 2013

Well I settled on the Cabine tree tester and from my initial results it's a winner. What I was sold as Lino is not Lino, that's the bad news. The good news is that now I know why it was not doing what I thought it should. So now I need to obtain some Lino.

Longone

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onondaga posted this 22 November 2013

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6699>Longone

Letter press print shops that years ago used Linotype alloy every day are very obsolete and a charming thing of the past. The quality of the scrap left from them varies a lot depending on the quality of the employees that worked at the print shops.

You are not likely to get exact ratio and exact hardness very often when buying scrap so your tester will be a great help checking your bullets. The hardest Linotype scrap I have gotten is in the form of small blocks of single letters or single lines of print. The softest has been ingotized Linotype scrap.

 If you get the choice from your supplier get the stuff that looks like this:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/Lino.jpg.html>

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Longone posted this 22 November 2013

Onondaga,

I figure after I go through all the lead I have accumulated I will have trading material. There is one chunk of lead that has to be 80-90 LBS. not to mention the sinkers etc. Once I get a chance to test and sort it I'll have a much better idea.

Longone

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onondaga posted this 23 November 2013

Longone wrote: Onondaga,

I figure after I go through all the lead I have accumulated I will have trading material. There is one chunk of lead that has to be 80-90 LBS. not to mention the sinkers etc. Once I get a chance to test and sort it I'll have a much better idea.

Longone I have a simple plan when I sort scrap. I make 2 groups, one is soft for muzzle-loading stuff and the other is harder and all the harder stuff gets mixed together and tested. I like the hard batch mixed all together so I get a uniform BHN for the whole hard lot and that becomes a base for mixing with something harder to get my #2 clone for recreational shooting.

Gary

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 23 November 2013

Now that you have your tester, you can sort to whatever degree you have the time and patience to tolerate. It would be a shame to mix everything together if you are looking for a harder alloy only. Your tester will give you a reading of the size of the indent and you can group one or two readings together for a batch or whatever goals you set to control your sort. You will be able to weigh out specific amounts of alloy to blend for a target hardness. That is why some prefer to keep lino seperate from WW or range lead or just “hard scrap". Keeps the options open so you do not have to buy other lino or whatever to get to your goal. At least you have the tool to make your informed decisions. Enjoy using it. Duane

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onondaga posted this 23 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6699>Longone

Just remember that how the lead was cooled can dramatically effect hardness testing. If you make new ingots and cool them with water you will get a false high hard reading on the ingots compared to ingots poured into a warm mold and cooled of their own accord.

The same thing with bullets, the first area on them to cool is the hardest and the last area to cool is the softest. Lee recommends filing the sides of bullets flat and testing that area. I recommend you stick with that method for any hardness tester. Noses and bases can be much harder than the sides of cast bullets that bear on the barrel during shooting. The filed flat sides of bullets give the most consistent test results for me.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 26 April 2014

5 x (Lead dia divided by test dia)^2 Equals BHN. Simple method. Just need a ball bearing & a vise. For me it was cost free & accurate. Save your money.

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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joeb33050 posted this 26 April 2014

A hardness tester is as useful to a bullet caster as a bicycle is to a fish.

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Longone posted this 26 April 2014

joeb33050 wrote: A hardness tester is as useful to a bullet caster as a bicycle is to a fish.

Interested in buying some really hard lead? Longone

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joeb33050 posted this 28 April 2014

Longone wrote: joeb33050 wrote: A hardness tester is as useful to a bullet caster as a bicycle is to a fish.

Interested in buying some really hard lead? LongoneTrade for a bicycle?

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Brodie posted this 29 April 2014

Longone wrote: joeb33050 wrote: A hardness tester is as useful to a bullet caster as a bicycle is to a fish.

Interested in buying some really hard lead? Longone

He buys all his really hard lead at the plumbing supply house.  They use the same alloy for sealing old cast iron drain pipe. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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LWesthoff posted this 29 April 2014

I use the same method Pigslayer does. My sample “ingots” are poured in an aluminum muffin tin, and the ball bearing I use is an inch and a quarter diameter. The big dents are lots easier to measure than the impressions from a little 1/4” or 3/8” bearing. Best part about the whole thing is it's CHEAP (like me?). It's also quite accurate.

Wes

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